jaf Wrote:Cathy,

The 'You' in my second paragraph referred to the parents collectively and not 'you' as an individual. It was a response to your remark "We have picked every point of the councils criteria to pieces". As you point out, I don't know you (the individual) and can't comment, but I do know parents at Oakmere and Sunny Bank and never met any who seemed willing to listen. Normally at this point I would apologise, but this time I couldn't care less. If you are going to call be a troll and claim I'm being duplicitous  when I don't agree then I will let you pick up unintended insults where you wish.

You asked where the hysteria was in a post that is little more than a hysteria rant. You have gone on to invite me "meet you in the playground" in what seems to be a vague threat of violence. I suggested you look at things unemotionally, not that you should stop caring. The school has closed, no one has died. You lost, but it isn't the end of the world.

You're right, I'm not a Sunny Bank parent, but that does not mean I wanted it closed. I am a tax payer and I constantly see money thrown away. There are hundreds of excess places and something needed to be done. To do nothing was a criminal waste of money. Money that could be spent on useful things, although I expect the council will find a way to waste it. A school had to close. No one wanted it to be theirs, but it had to be someone's.

Of course there's no threat of violence- let's be real - a sens-se of humour in the face of adversity perhaps - you may be a father of seven foot tall for all I care - I'm a mother of 5'4" - and what I say to you is this- purely and simply- should you claim I haven't looked at this case from a blank sheet after three months of my attending the school -until the present day, you are wrong! I will walk to your school and state what I believe in your playground at the top of my voice - because I have before, and will again stick by what I've discovered through this year long process- Therefore I would expect you to do the same. Whatever school your children attend I am pleased you think they're ok- I never, ever believed that any school in Potters Bar should close and continue to believe that education is above a certain level of finance- but believe also that what I say online I would say to your face and in the company of your friends and fellow parents- I'll do it on your ground because I believe it- I have said it I will continue to say it- and although I do not expect it of you Jaf -my previous responses to your insensitive contributions are and will always be in this vein - I have looked at everything from every angle and you implied that I /We had not-( of course you singular/you plural and generic and 'sense of humour' all go mis-understood and mis-read) I ask you to think again - and Potters Bar will suffer because this has been done in the name of reducing surplus places in the schools- however it has been with the aim of something else entirely - the foregone conclusion and the 'done deal' we were assured it was not -If only I had a pound for every person who told me it was down to the 'old backhander' - I'd be pretty well off - and I and others will be looking for why from now till whenever. In the meantime - let me make this clear to you -if you truly believe what you think - you can say it loud and clear and take the consequences in real life- not just online : I've said it in the open - most people empathise with their 'emotions' in the end , without them we are nothing, JAF. If you feel you can't say it public loud and clear - you must ask yourself, why not? So let's clear up the lack of understanding here- my days of violence in the playground ended in a mining town in Yorkshire twenty-five years ago - I never asked for it even then. What have I learned? Absolutely nothing JAF- because I'll still suffer a fool rather than be told I'm wrong when I'm certain I'm not. - So - if there's a way to meet and talk to you and yours I 'll tell it as it is in whatever playground you're at - Now,unfortunately, I'd only have to explain why we should not be happy to be the sacrificial lamb -but I never would have said 'I'm glad you've gone' to you and your children. - Pizza Town coffee shop - monday morning 9.30am

Zero Wrote:Cathy, your post is upsetting, it really is, it’s so hard to feel so powerless in matters like this. Sunny Bank obviously means more to you and your family than money and numbers, projections and targets, and it is great that it does.

I don’t want to become involved or take sides, but I want to state that I think it’s important to be able to respectfully disagree with anyone or thing – that why I haven’t moderated any of this thread so far.

The way this discussion is going could last forever, a clash between personal values, and a more financial based approach. I’m not going to say which is right, or which is wrong, nobody can because it’s not a black or white answer.

I think now is the time that is right to agree to disagree, the current direction of this thread is becoming a more and more personal battle, something I am not sure is right for this forum.

Regards,
Zero

God Bless you Zero , impartial as you are - you are correct -it IS emotional, and yet you are wrong - this cannot last forever - and you don't have to say which is right or wrong or black,white,grey or brown. I know what it is along with many, many others and I agree this may not be right for the forum ZERO - however, I know how many have taken great offence at JAF's comments- coming so close to the news and therefore it's not a personal issue- quite the opposite - I merely state, that with no-one else involved ( Sunny Bank is not a confrontational place, and I am not a confrontational woman) and to avoid further misinterpretation of text I'd rather to speak face to face with JAF or any person who shares his/her views.  Better that than be referred to as a 'bully' because I stand up for my mis-interpreted comments - I thought they were clear enough for most adults to receive in the way they were given.  If it's not possible I'll understand, but I'd like to make it clear that if a forum is a place for discussion then that discussion must be held as if the persons were present in the company of good people - and in respect of that fact - an insulting sentence of twenty-five words having digested a dictionary is equally as vile as a one word summary:ie 'name-calling' : and can be more revolting. I'll refer everyone back to JAF's comments whether insulting myself as 'YOU' or you all as 'you' makes any difference at all once we've all been insulted. It would all be such a laugh would it not? Except the next thing close to family has damned well fallen apart with the loss of Sunny Bank ,the staff and Mr Hooper :and Yes!- In years to come we'll deal with it! I've experienced death of loved ones on several occasions and JAF you are WRONG!! It DOES feel as though someone has died and I hope you don't experience it ! Until then if none can help or make us feel better, would you please refrain from kicking us whilst we're feeling the way you would if you were in our shoes!!!! I'll still be there at 9.30 am Pizza Town waiting for someone to give me a GOOD reason as to why this has happened to 200 children. Be there if you will - I'll wear a name badge- it'll say CATHY - because that's my NAME!   ZERO thankyou for your patience, I know you must find this infuriating - but it's all we have felt for over a year and so you must me able to withstand it for a minute or two - at  least - XXXXX

< Zero: edited only to fix the quotes in this post >

I gave Jaf a hard time earlier, and after re-reading their posts I can see where they are coming from. I don't agree with their view, indeed it does come a cross as if it is a bit of "well it doesn't affect me so what's the problem" and I have asked Jaf various questions which haven't being answered yet.

Cathy, calm down! I know you're directly affected, but something did need to be done. SBS did have nearly 200 empty places (and schools receive funding in relation to number of pupils they have), it had those free spaces for a reason.

Smiler Wrote:I gave Jaf a hard time earlier, and after re-reading their posts I can see where they are coming from. I don't agree with their view, indeed it does come a cross as if it is a bit of "well it doesn't affect me so what's the problem" and I have asked Jaf various questions which haven't being answered yet.

Cathy, calm down! I know you're directly affected, but something did need to be done. SBS did have nearly 200 empty places (and schools receive funding in relation to number of pupils they have), it had those free spaces for a reason.

Hi Smiler- I am calm thanks. That I'm directly affected, in the great scheme of things is, of course, of little significance. That's not the point. Many are directly affected and that certainly is significant. I read,re-read and understood J's comments before I responded them and stand by those responses. Equally Jaf will do the same with their comments and that's fine.
It's ground that has been covered so much Smiler - something did need to be done, yes. However there was a solution to that problem without closing a school that performs well - that solution was not listened to and we have a situation wherupon end didn't justify the means. I don't think the long-term impliations of removing the school from the south of the town have been explored.
What reasons do you think SBS had a lot of spare places?

Smiler,

If the following seems a little blunt it's because I really don't appreciate being called a liar and a troll. I took your questions as rhetorical, if you are seriously waiting for answer then I was wrong, they are pathetic. I do not need to complain, campaign or comment every time the council wastes money to have the right to comment on this. If you want to ask me a serious question I will give you a serious answer.

Cathy,


I did not call you a bully ( I have done no name calling ) but there is a vague threat of violence in the post. I never thought you intended to attack me, I was trying to point out that your posts are getting over the top and more than a little hysterical. Maybe I am misjudging you here, but if we can't have a dialogue here, where we can both finish a post without interruption or being shouted down, then I doubt that we could have a meaningful dialogue face to face. (No prizes for guessing the next name I will be called)

Have the parents ever considered raising the money to buy the school off the council and then employing the staff themselves? This would be extremely expensive and I guess it would be way beyond the finances of the parents, but if you "believe that education is above a certain level of finance" then you must believe that this is the right thing to do.

This isn't trolling. I imagine the parents would love to be able to keep school open and would make sacrifices to do so if they could, but they know that there is no chance of being able to fund this themselves, because in the end the cold hard economics of the situation dictate that that their limited finances can't make this happen. Well the country has limited finances too. They are much larger, but there are many more demands on them. You believe that the cost isn't important in education, some would claim that health policy should not be dictated by economics, that law and order is beyond price, that defence is paramount, that pensions are more important than finance. The list goes on. There are too many good ways to spend our limited money to keep schools open when there are hundreds of excess places in the town.

Jaf, some earlier posts, IMHO, came across that you were a troll. I now accept you're not. You are however, IMHO, from the section that simply says I'm alright Jack, Sod you. It's unfortunate, but that's the society we live in. My questions weren't waiting for an answer, just merely pointing out the money that this wonderful council wastes on other projects.

The education of some 200odd childwill will be affected, some of them quite serverely, and that Jaf is a fact.

Cathy, I won't give my opinion on why SBS has so many free spaces as it would do this thread no good.

It is also my opinion that more could of been done to get the towns backing of the campaign. I was aware of it as I have primary children, but I also know of many others that weren't aware of what was happening.

I commute into London on weekdays and not once did I see anyone at the station collection signatures? Not once did I see anything in town? Don't know why... perhaps I missed it??

Smiler Wrote:I have asked Jaf various questions which haven't being answered yet.

Smiler Wrote:My questions weren't waiting for an answer

Make your mind up.

Quote:The education of some 200odd childwill will be affected, some of them quite serverely, and that Jaf is a fact.

200 will have to move school. That is all that is a fact. How much they are affected by this is supposition. I think the vast majority will be largely unaffected. Children move schools all the time and get on with it.

Smiler Wrote:Jaf, some earlier posts, IMHO, came across that you were a troll. I now accept you're not. You are however, IMHO, from the section that simply says I'm alright Jack, Sod you. It's unfortunate, but that's the society we live in. My questions weren't waiting for an answer, just merely pointing out the money that this wonderful council wastes on other projects.

The education of some 200odd childwill will be affected, some of them quite serverely, and that Jaf is a fact.

Cathy, I won't give my opinion on why SBS has so many free spaces as it would do this thread no good.

It is also my opinion that more could of been done to get the towns backing of the campaign. I was aware of it as I have primary children, but I also know of many others that weren't aware of what was happening.

I commute into London on weekdays and not once did I see anyone at the station collection signatures? Not once did I see anything in town? Don't know why... perhaps I missed it??

Hi Smiler - We only had until the education panel meeting last Autumn to get a petition together and handed in. It had a fraction under 2000 signatures by that time( not sure whether this included the online signatures) There were several places and shops that had the petition to sign. I don't think people gathered signatures on the street from Sunny Bank , didn't see them collecting them in the town from Oakmere either for that matter- I didn't ,and nor did others, want it to go down the route of a competition between SB and any other school and believed Oakmere and Sunny Bank both need to stay. David LLoyd advised we hand the petition in to the council - and that was that! What happened to it then I have no idea.

Not having lived here as long as most - I had little knowledge of the rumours and gossip which residents of a town pick up every day and then remember, maybe one or two years later were significant. According to my neighbours rumours of attempts to sell off local land have been going on for fourteen years.
I have made plenty of friends whose children don't attend SBS - and several were advised not to put their childrens names down at Sunny Bank as rumour had it the land was being sold off - this was four years ago.
Four years is long enough to dwindle a primary school unless someone lifts the rumour. Although the council wrote to concerned parents at SB at the time to allay their fears, unfortunately they didn't tell the rest of the town. I think it's clear now why not - given they plan to spend an awful amount of money on security on the premises for up to four years in order for it to change catagory from green belt to brown, and then sell it to developers.
To many of us, given that Sunny Bank must now close, it is important to us that the school's reputation is intact - Despite falling numbers - Sunny Bank's Value Added Score was the third highest in Potters Bar and therefore standards were not falling.
I have no other knowledge of any othe reason why our numbers became so low as to put us in danger and that's why I asked - but thanks anyway.

jaf Wrote:200 will have to move school. That is all that is a fact. How much they are affected by this is supposition. I think the vast majority will be largely unaffected. Children move schools all the time and get on with it.

Of course they do Jaf. They just get on with it.

I'm alright Jack

That's very weak. I changed school three times and quite enjoyed being the new kid, My eldest child changed school and thrived at his new school, my boss changed school too many times for him to remember and on more than one occasion moved country too. As a rule, children do not mind change. It's not a case of "I'm all right Jack" it is a case of being objective and realistic.

Even aside from the issue of the children, I'm not demeaning this but it has been fully explored.
What about those of us that live in the surrounding roads?
This will bring a different kind of housing to our very quiet picturesque area, and probably different people. A housing redevelopment will not only disrupt many families who have children at the school, but also the nearby residents

(21/Apr/2009 09:11 PM)Sopzeh Wrote:  Even aside from the issue of the children, I'm not demeaning this but it has been fully explored.
What about those of us that live in the surrounding roads?
This will bring a different kind of housing to our very quiet picturesque area, and probably different people. A housing redevelopment will not only disrupt many families who have children at the school, but also the nearby residents

Hi - Of course Sunny Bank is now closed. Those who had children at Sunny Bank are now, on the whole, driving part of the way and parking close to Cranborne ( because it's too dangerous to get closer) - then cross the main road to school - often hazardous!Not putting children aside altogether just yet - it's rather pathetic to discover that one year 5 have had to have their classroom door removed as the room's so full you can't open a door without hitting a chair!!! Again - children aside - as residents, it's clear that the site was always up for development - and whether or not people mind what kind of development it may be - apparently we pay a premium to live here as it's quiet and secluded - !!! So do you think that'll be taken into consideration should things change???

(15/May/2009 08:04 PM)mandolin Wrote:  

(21/Apr/2009 09:11 PM)Sopzeh Wrote:  Even aside from the issue of the children, I'm not demeaning this but it has been fully explored.
What about those of us that live in the surrounding roads?
This will bring a different kind of housing to our very quiet picturesque area, and probably different people. A housing redevelopment will not only disrupt many families who have children at the school, but also the nearby residents

Hi - Of course Sunny Bank is now closed. Those who had children at Sunny Bank are now, on the whole, driving part of the way and parking close to Cranborne ( because it's too dangerous to get closer) - then cross the main road to school - often hazardous!Not putting children aside altogether just yet - it's rather pathetic to discover that one year 5 have had to have their classroom door removed as the room's so full you can't open a door without hitting a chair!!! Again - children aside - as residents, it's clear that the site was always up for development - and whether or not people mind what kind of development it may be - apparently we pay a premium to live here as it's quiet and secluded - !!! So do you think that'll be taken into consideration should things change???

Also Jaf! The New 'Kid' ??? Not everone adores thart kind of attention - and even if you should the enjoyment is perhaps not so great when you do not become the No1 and be centre of attention! Not the new 'kid' - Not the kid of parents who have had a choice like your boss - but one of many joining in with no special attention for being new - no time for dinner - and no damn door on your cassroom in case it hits you in the head . Isn't there now a problem with many finding a primary school place?